What constitutes an "all natural"

my personal standard is hormonal manipulation

I was just going to post this question, which is going to open up one hell of a debate. IMO, "natural" is a user-defined term. I could consider creatine to be natural, but not CEE or any of the other hot new ergogenics.

EDIT: I think injecting yourself with Testosterone(something that can actually be found in nature) is more natural than what I mentioned above.

no supplements at all is natural in my book. No whey, creatine, Fish oil caps, Vitamins.

Androgens (even legal ones), GH, IGF-1, and exo insulin for me would disqualify you. As well as anything else illegal or grey (clen/t3/DNP) My personal definition. Creatine may not be "natural" but lets be serious here. Does it really give you that much of an advantage? Maybe a couple extra pounds of lean body mass.

I don't think "natural" can have a workable definition.

1) Can somebody on HRT (and hence using exogenous AAS) natural?
2) Is somebody who manipulates their neurotransmitter tone via coke, ephedrine, l-tyro etc, natural?
3) Is insulin/HGH natural?
4) ...can a diabetic (type I for arguments sake) be natural?
5) Is 6-oxo/ATD usage natural?
6) Is extradietary creatine usage natural?

Each of these questions have various pitfalls which will become evident in answering them.

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As a side note, this is a strange way to welcome Layne to his new forum.

Wait a minute is eating eggs out of a carton natural?

when the natural definition is used, its not the hippie definition you guys are putting out. to me, its always meant it eliminated the substances that produce dramatic results in one's body/lb/fat mass.

Posted by: @prolangtum

Androgens (even legal ones), GH, IGF-1, and exo insulin for me would disqualify you. As well as anything else illegal or grey (clen/T3/DNP) My personal definition. Creatine may not be "natural" but lets be serious here. Does it really give you that much of an advantage? Maybe a couple extra pounds of lean body mass.

I think this is probably the best and most reasonable def of a natural lifter. The guy that said no whey, fish oil, etc. is out of his tree in my opinion...if you're gonna go that far why not say you have to lift rocks and trees and the like while barefoot and naked or something (not to be confused with barefoot and pregnant, which would be the natural state of woman in the kitchen)

Posted by: @prolangtum

when the natural definition is used, its not the hippie definition you guys are putting out. to me, its always meant it eliminated the substances that produce dramatic results in one's body/lb/fat mass.

lol.. hippie definition. Funny shit.

Posted by: @prolangtum

when the natural definition is used, its not the hippie definition you guys are putting out. to me, its always meant it eliminated the substances that produce dramatic results in one's body/lb/fat mass.

So wouldn't layne then have to admit that everything Scivation/Primaforce sells doesn't produce dramatic results in his physique (if that was what we accepted as the definition of natural)? How would you define "dramatic"? Also, some people see "dramatic" results with ppar-alpha agonists like sesathin, and others don't see much. Does each person have their own set of substances that, for them, is natural, but for others is not natural?

Aside from this thread, which I am fine with, this subforum will NOT be about arguing what is or is not "all natural" -- we all have a pretty good idea of what we think it is, and we are all close enough on that definition. So, let us not get into silliness and nonsense.

See Prolangtum's post.

And, of course, this is Layne's board, so he can say what it is for this forum.

I agree with Repub Carrier. It is just a continuum of agents, with escalating magnitude of effects, and escalating risk profiles.

I suppose naturals are people who consume the agents at the one end. Where the cut off point is - who knows?

J

Posted by: @Par Deus

Aside from this thread, which I am fine with, this subforum will NOT be about arguing what is or is not "all natural" -- we all have a pretty good idea of what we think it is, and we are all close enough on that definition. So, let us not get into silliness and nonsense.

See Prolangtum's post.

And, of course, this is Layne's board, so he can say what it is for this forum.

Yeah, I intended no disrespect to layne or anyone really, this was just something I've been thinking about recently... I'd gladly argue the nonsense details somewhere else, or barring that, not here.

Par's right. We all know what this means. It's kind of like in sports when they refer to "performance enhancers" being an unfair advantage. I had a discussion once with someone who said steroids or anything that enabled someone to recover faster than normal was cheating. I asked him if the kid who is able to recover from a deep bruise by taking large amounts of vit C was cheating because it enabled him to get back out on the practice field the next week while someone else might have to sit out a day or so. He had to rethink his black and white viewpoint.