6-OXO

Posted by: @Heathen

    Having said that estrogen is good for growth. It raises IGF-1 levels and what not.      .

Estrogen has dual and contradictory effects on IGF-1 production. It works in the brain to increase GH production (which of course stimulates IGF-1), but in the liver it functions to decrease the production of IGF-1

This is why estrogens (and some estrogen partial agonists) are not good to take orally. OTOH, aromatase inhibitors are good orally. Think first pass

Posted by: @Heathen

My goal is constant progress.

This is not a healthy philosophy. YOu simply cannot have constant progress, and attempting to do so will eventually give you big problems, both physically and psychologically.

YOu have to think of ultimate long term progress. Understand that growth is like the stock market - 2 steps forward and 1 step back. Learn to not get frustrated by the times you lose some size and strength and understand how your body and mind go through cycles. Learn when to lay off, its just as important to lay off sometimes as it is to turn it up a notch

I used to think like you. I still have that tendency. This is why I have a fucked up back and knees amongst other maladies.

Pat Thanx for your coments. I'm an english teacher here in Japan and after a long day of work and working out I usually get on the computer around 1 AM my time. Althoguht I know that I mean to say it doens't always come out the way I'ds like it to.

I wasn't tring to rip on your new product. Actually with your rep I'm sure it's an excellent product. I still prefur 1-AD over most 1-T products. Why because I see results from you stuff. However you'd be hard pressed to convince me that 6-OXO is going to add 20 pounds to me in 3 weeks the same way 1-AD did. Most of that weight was weight that I was regaining from past steroid cycles. I found it interesting that I was able to have the smae strength that I did when I was on gear as when I was using 1-AD.

However like I said I don't really see estrogen as the enemy of young healthy builders. I feel that money is probably better spent on something like 1-AD unless you are dieting or old. Am I wrong?

Thanx for your advice on improving. It has taken me 10 years to go from 165 lbs to 290. Actually my best steroid weight was 275 so considering that I have been training off of steroids for the past year I feel that I have made quite good success. Actually I'll probably go on the gear again once I get over 300 naturally. Then the sky's the limit. Keep up the good work. Cheers.

Posted by: @Heathen

However you'd be hard pressed to convince me that 6-OXO is going to add 20 pounds to me in 3 weeks the same way 1-AD did. Most of that weight was weight that I was regaining from past steroid cycles. I found it interesting that I was able to have the smae strength that I did when I was on gear as when I was using 1-AD.

  However like I said I don't really see estrogen as the enemy of young healthy builders. I feel that money is probably better spent on something like 1-AD unless you are dieting or old. Am I wrong?

I don't think you grasp the purpose of this product. This product is primarily a recovery product to be taken after cycles of prohormones or steroids. Secondarily, people that do not take hormonal supplements may choose to use it as a boost of their own Testosterone production, however the ergogenic effect from this would me mild and not nearly as dramatic as that seen with taking a good exogenous steroid supp/drug

If you have not already, read the article i wrote on 6-OXO at ergopharm.net

Estrogen is not always the enemy, that is correct. However, after steroid cycles it is usually very advantageous to block estrogen as a means of stimulating LH and restarting endogenous testosterone production. Also, during a cycle of aromatizing steroids estrogen can get out of control, and then too blocking estrogen is a good idea

Estrogen is not always the enemy, that is correct. However, after steroid cycles it is usually very advantageous to block estrogen as a means of stimulating LH and restarting endogenous testosterone production. Also, during a cycle of aromatizing steroids estrogen can get out of control, and then too blocking estrogen is a good idea
Heathen Posted on Sep 7 2002, 08:44 AM

I thought that I already made this point earlier in the post. However after I typed my reply last night I did read your artice on anabolic extreme. So when are you going to give us the formula to make substance 44?

how does 6-oxo compare to perscription suicide aromatase inhibitors in terms of action and strength? Earlier in this thread we discussed the differences between suicide inhibitors and regular anti-aromatase drugs (i.e. Arimidex or femara)... I'm not asking that again, rather... how is 6-oxo OTC if it is a true suicide inhibitor of comparable strength to perscription suicide inhibitors such as aromasin?

I should add that I did not mean to sound alarmist at all in my rebound post -- basically, if you stop cold turkey, just know that a rebound is possible and know what to look for (pre-gyno and such).

I assume the half-life of estrogen in the blood is not that long, so you could just start right up taking it again, if you had problems.

back to the original question regarding 5-alpha.
Yes I would taper the 5-alpha for a week and use the 6-OXO or DIM and calcium glucarate.

Why?

In theory the 5-alpha (DHT) will block the estrogen built up in your system from your bodies herclucian effort to keep the androgen/estrogen ratio oh so perfect, from stimulating the estrogen receptor. The DIM and calcium glucarate help to metabolize the estrogen quicker as it frantically tries to find an open receptor and grow some nice boobs. If your lucky and taper down the 5-alpha right you should come out of your cycle with a desirable test/estrogen ratio and avoid a horrible estrogen rebound while increasing recovery. If your going to use Tribestan use it the last 2 weeks and in your taper, it is strong but is also suppresive if used too long as the increase in LH will send a signal to another feedback controll.

homeostatis sucks!

Patrick or anyone else;

What do you think of the strategy used by the Life Extension Foundation to enhance bioavailability of chrysin? They pair it with piperine extract from black pepper, which according to several studies (see below) actually does increase the bioavailability of everything that's been tested with it.

2: Khajuria A, Thusu N, Zutshi U. Related Articles, Links

Piperine modulates permeability characteristics of intestine by inducing alterations in membrane dynamics: influence on brush border membrane fluidity, ultrastructure and enzyme kinetics.
Phytomedicine. 2002 Apr;9(3):224-31.
PMID: 12046863 [PubMed - in process]

3: Shoba G, Joy D, Joseph T, Majeed M, Rajendran R, Srinivas PS. Related Articles, Links

Influence of piperine on the pharmacokinetics of curcumin in animals and human volunteers.
Planta Med. 1998 May;64(4):353-6.
PMID: 9619120 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4: Khajuria A, Zutshi U, Bedi KL. Related Articles, Links

Permeability characteristics of piperine on oral absorption--an active alkaloid from peppers and a bioavailability enhancer.
Indian J Exp Biol. 1998 Jan;36(1):46-50.
PMID: 9536651 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

5: Bano G, Raina RK, Zutshi U, Bedi KL, Johri RK, Sharma SC. Related Articles, Links

Effect of piperine on bioavailability and pharmacokinetics of propranolol and theophylline in healthy volunteers.
Eur J Clin Pharmacol. 1991;41(6):615-7.
PMID: 1815977 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

6: Bano G, Amla V, Raina RK, Zutshi U, Chopra CL. Related Articles, Links

The effect of piperine on pharmacokinetics of phenytoin in healthy volunteers.
Planta Med. 1987 Dec;53(6):568-9. No abstract available.
PMID: 3444866 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

7: Atal CK, Zutshi U, Rao PG. Related Articles, Links

Scientific evidence on the role of Ayurvedic herbals on bioavailability of drugs.
J Ethnopharmacol. 1981 Sep;4(2):229-32.
PMID: 7311598 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I made a chrysin topical in DMSO for several people, which worked quite well at lowering estrogen. Had blood tests to back it up. However, chrysin also inhibits 17-beta-HSD, which converts a-dione or a-diol to testosterone, so you would not want to use it unless you were on androgens, or had really high estrogen levels, naturally.

Posted by: @nightop

how does 6-oxo compare to perscription suicide aromatase inhibitors in terms of action and strength?  Earlier in this thread we discussed the differences between suicide inhibitors and regular anti-aromatase drugs (i.e. arimidex or femara)... I'm not asking that again, rather... how is 6-oxo OTC if it is a true suicide inhibitor of comparable strength to perscription suicide inhibitors such as aromasin?

The active dosage of the 6-OXO is probably around 500mg a day. Obviously the active dose of something like aromasin is much lower. However, what matters is the cost per active dose. Therefore 6-OXO may compare very well to aromasin.

Piperine extract is extremely cheap. Its often sold under the trade name bioprine. I dont know about using it though as there are some stuides showing it hurts the absorbtion of certain nutrients while it boosts others. If you wanted to give it a go though it would only cost you about 5 bucks for a months supply.

Can 6-OXO cause a false positive on a drug test?

I couldn't find the quote, but PA said that he's not going to guarantee that there won't be any contamination with Nor-precursors; I think that anyone that would guarantee it would be full of it anyhow. I really wouldn't worry about it. Unless you're getting really big really quick, nobody is going to want to pay to test you for steroids. Did the doc turn you down for Nolva?

Posted by: @jm5913

Piperine extract is extremely cheap. Its often sold under the trade name bioprine. I dont know about using it though as there are some stuides showing it hurts the absorbtion of certain nutrients while it boosts others. If you wanted to give it a go though it would only cost you about 5 bucks for a months supply.

I pretty much scoured the literature, and only found positive studies involving bioperine (piperine) and nutrient absorption, no studies which found inhibition. Its other effect, at slightly higher doses, is inhibition of metabolism of various compounds by the liver, which serves to maintain higher blood levels of the nutrient/compound/drug.

This could be a good or a bad thing, depending on whatever kind of "supplement" a person takes with it.