Carbs and Lipolysis

2.) Does glycogen repletion still occur in a deficit, and to what degree? To what degree does glycogen DEPLETION occur during a deficit?

No one can anwser this. It depends on the amount of carbs you are consumin on a regular basis ( for GSI activity). as well as your training regimine. its to highly variable to anwser your question as worded.

Sorry Spook...I definitely should have been clearer. Thanks for the response, though - I understand things a lot better than I did!

To clarify the above point: Let's first assume that one is consuming a diet relatively high in CHO. I suppose my question is does deficit caused by dietary restriction alone (irrespective of exercise) reduce glycogen, or does the body pull from glycogen stores to try to "make up" for the deficit? And then, if so, does the body then try to refill glycogen from consumed calories (i.e. food) even though one is pursuing a deficit, or do you just remain depleted until you run out?

Also, if one is consuming around 1 to 1.5g of protein per lb of bodyweight while eating at a deficit, will muscle catabolism still occur to any significant degree? Does eating every 3 hours have any beneficial impact on this or are there other strategies for controlling it?

THANKS!!!

s far as VAT goes yes you could lose it while over eating carbs and protein. VAT is controlled by androgens and cortisol for the most part. If you were over eating strictly carbs and protein and you lowered your androgen levels and inhibited local (not plasma) cortisol then the fat in your fat would most likely redistribute to SAT. if you were eating mostly carbs and protein but under mantinance caloric level than you would probobly burn it off. Howver as VAT is hormonaly controlled, diet will play little part in removing it though the lower fat aproach is better. Its really the cotrisol and androgens that promote and sustain its growth. So to remove it you need lower androgens and cortisol.

As far as loosing VAT, it seems that keeping insulin high would supress cortisol and also not effect the lipolysis of VAT either. Not to mention the other anabolic benefits of higher insulin concentrations. Funny that I have been eating a good amount of calories and fewer yet large higher GI meals consisting of soley carbs and protein and have seen very positive effects. IMO This type of nutrional regiment(near maitenace cals// almost all carbs/protein) coupled with some sprints should work wonders for elminating VAT fat and then I have read that HIIT works well for the elimination of sub-q fat.

As far as loosing VAT, it seems that keeping insulin high would supress cortisol and also not effect the lipolysis of VAT either.

not necesarily. Insulin itself does not have a major impact on cortisol. Having to much insulin around will drive your blood sugar lower. This will in effect increase corticosterone production. Its not just Insulin either. you also have to contened with the portal vein glucosse sensor and the liver glucose sensor. I would think eating very slow digesting starches, with a very small amount of fat, and a tiny bit of fructose is the best way to go. This should keep blood sugar as level as possible which will keep corticosterone production as low as possible.

Also tacking some time to relax and cutting back on the stimulants could help as well.

The hepatoportal glucose sensor system is so often overlooked its just sad. It will get full treatment in leptin VI. It is teribly important. If you did not know there are direct afferent nerves that run from the portal vein to the adrenal medulla. There are also direct afferent nerve connection form the liver to the PVN. These two are how the body lets the brain no how much glucose is floating around as all the brain realy knows about is brain glucose and that is not generally reflective of blood glucose because the brain has to have it so tightly regulated that the two often do not coincide. fructose can send a very strong signal in the liver-PVN system. To much is very bad though which is why it should be a very small part of over all carb intake.

Insulin itself does not have a major impact on cortisol.

Spook
Interesting, The opposite of the above is spammed EVERYWHERE ....what about all the stuff concerning insulin spikes after workouts and insulin in the morning to keep rising cortisol levels at bay, etc etc.

Another off topic question to which you may be of help
When I do sprints, I like to allow a decent amount of rest and recovery between them and only go about 60 yards. Any thoughts on this and how/if I should restructure my approach?

Spook
Interesting, The opposite of the above is spammed EVERYWHERE ....what about all the stuff concerning insulin spikes after workouts and insulin in the morning to keep rising cortisol levels at bay, etc etc.

I think insulin spikes first thing in the morning is a terible idea. Thats just going to shoot you right in to hypoglycemia till lunch time. Exercise nutrition is different. I do think an insulin spike is beneficial post or during exercise. However I think this has little to do with cortisol. Insulin is a potent vasodilator thus it enhances nutrient delivery to muscle during and post exercise and can thus work synergistically with the exercise induced increase in blood delivery to muscle. This is why I think its advantageous at this time not because of any anti cortisol phenomenon.

it is becoming ever more clear that in healthy people cortisol is not an endorince hormone at all. It exhibits much more of a paracrine effect. this is because 11Beta-HSD is present in numerous tissue and can either serve to activate or deactivate cortisol/coritosterone. This behavior of activation vs. deactivation differs tremendously between tissues and nutritional state.

Insulins postive effect in skeletal muscle, in terms of cortisol, has more to do with delivering excess nutrients and less to do with some how being antagonistic to cortisol.

For body comp the best thing to do is keep blood sugar as steady and level as possible. This keeps corticosterone + cortisol levels as low as possible. Which seems ideal. I would not look to knock out cortisol via supplments or durgs however as keeping it to low would cause problems. But modulation via blood sugar and stressor response (both immune/trauma and pshycological) seems to be what mother nature intended.

Posted by: @Spook

So this makes Ab-Solved a possible life saving supplement for anyone that stores a good chunk of fat in VAT like myself.

What method do you personally use to assess VAT levels?

Also, stimulants...I was unclear on this; what is their impact on VAT?

Posted by: @Lgoosey

....what about all the stuff concerning insulin spikes after workouts and insulin in the morning to keep rising cortisol levels at bay, etc etc.

Like Spook stated, it's probably the indicators of blood glucose levels that regulate cortisol levels in this manner. Am I correct here?

Posted by: @Spook

I would not look to knock out cortisol via supplments or durgs however as keeping it to low would cause problems.

This statement seems to be in opposition to the use of suppliments such as Fl7 and Ab-Solved. Just how low cortisol levels are we talking and would the use of said suppliments bring levels this low?

Also, stimulants...I was unclear on this; what is their impact on VAT?

stimulants increase VAT.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...6&dopt;=Abstract

here is a brand spacking new study on it. Stimulants make your PVN super sensitive to activating the adrenals. One thing not mentioned in that study is there is a thing called the basal sympathetic nodule located at the base of your brain. It has direct connection to the PVN and delivers NE to the PVN. This is nodule is the fight or flight center of the brain and can be inervated by amphetamines and particularly the combo of yohimbine + ephedrine.

Sorry Spook...I definitely should have been clearer. Thanks for the response, though - I understand things a lot better than I did!

To clarify the above point: Let's first assume that one is consuming a diet relatively high in CHO. I suppose my question is does deficit caused by dietary restriction alone (irrespective of exercise) reduce glycogen, or does the body pull from glycogen stores to try to "make up" for the deficit? And then, if so, does the body then try to refill glycogen from consumed calories (i.e. food) even though one is pursuing a deficit, or do you just remain depleted until you run out?

Also, if one is consuming around 1 to 1.5g of protein per lb of bodyweight while eating at a deficit, will muscle catabolism still occur to any significant degree? Does eating every 3 hours have any beneficial impact on this or are there other strategies for controlling it?

THANKS!!!

BUMP for Spook's reply on the above.

Also Spook, you said you don't advocate a breakfast insulin spike. Does this mean keep breakfast low in overall CHO or just make sure the GI of your breakfast is low? As an example, I like to have a bowl of All-Bran mixed with oat bran, fresh fruit, whey powder, and plain FF yogurt. I may even have a light english muffin with peanut butter. Although this equates to a relatively high CHO load, the GI is very low. Is this acceptable?

This statement seems to be in opposition to the use of suppliments such as Fl7 and Ab-Solved. Just how low cortisol levels are we talking and would the use of said suppliments bring levels this low?

Not really. FL7/Absolved modulate local cortisol. not corticosterone production at the adrenals. What I ment when I said looking to knock out corisol was trying to prevent corticosterone production at the adrenals. That would cause problems. Modulating active/inactive bia 7-oxo-DHEA on the other hand will have little effect on blood corticosterone levels (unless used oraly). In other words its tissue specific not whole body reduction.

avoiding the liver while dieting is a good idea especially while dieting. You will be hypoglycemic much of the day thus your body wants to make corticosterone. This would jsut be exacerbated by oral 7-keto use. However when eating near or above mantinance you will not be hypoglycemic most of the day thus lovering in the liver is not such a big deal.

I think this is why FL-7 is recomended for anti-fat gain during bulking and why Absolved is better when dieting. Both are superior to oral however.

Does this mean keep breakfast low in overall CHO or just make sure the GI of your breakfast is low?

jsut low in GI. I think carbs should be a large portion of breakfast I just don't think slamming down some malto or dextrose is a good idea. Eating some oatmeal with a little fruit and some table sugar is my personal choice. This provides slow digesting starches, some fructose, and some quick digesting glucose to raise your blood sugar levels initially but keep them elevated till lunch.

Posted by: @Spook

Does this mean keep breakfast low in overall CHO or just make sure the GI of your breakfast is low?

jsut low in GI. I think carbs should be a large portion of breakfast I just don't think slamming down some malto or dextrose is a good idea. Eating some oatmeal with a little fruit and some table sugar is my personal choice. This provides slow digesting starches, some fructose, and some quick digesting glucose to raise your blood sugar levels initially but keep them elevated till lunch.

My research on GABA supplementation in humans has shown that a GABA deficiency is common whenever vitamin B-6, manganse, taurine is lacking. The enzyme GA decarboxylase, forms GABA from Glutamic Acid. GABA can stimulate Prolactin release in humans also. Calcium and calmodulin can decrease excess GA in the brain which leads to increased GABA production. 3 grams/day of oral GABA supps in men are effective at reducing elevated BP through the calcium-channel blocker mechansims of GABA. Many studies in experimental animals show that GABA can signifigantly decrease insulin induced hyperphagia. (Tews et al., 1984). However, it seems that GABA supplements of 1-3 gram/day do stimulate glucagon release from the pancreas. Adding sodium chloride to GA (MSG for example) and also to GABA causes increased sodium excretion and increased urination.

L-alanine, the "non-essential" amino acid, comes from pyruvate conversion and also via the breakdown of carnosine which results in the production of Histidine/Alanine. Pantothenic Acid is crucial for this to occur. Isoleucine stimulates the release of alanine from muscle also. Post-exercise ketosis is also inhibited by alanine as the liver quickly converts alanine to usuable glucose. Alanine stimulates glucagon secretion also while being directly correlated with blood glucose levels in fasting states. Alanine inhibits ketogenesis in humans by a direct effect on the liver independent of insulin (Nosadini et al., 1981).
Alanine elevates pyruvate levels in men, but not in women. Conversely, Lactose is elevated in women by alanine but not in men. Alanine decreases cholesterol levels in men, but not in women. Hopefully my post is at least semi-related to this thread as hypoglycemia/glucagon/carbs and lipolysis were being discussed...

Posted by: @Spook

well to my knowledge no one has ever studied whole body fat trafficing based on oral dose. I don't know if there are or are not people who agree with me. My reasoning is that most fat ingested orally gets packed in to TAG and clyclomicron in the liver. you need your fat to strip this coating off and then hydrolise the TAG to FFA and release it in to the blood stream. Granted some FFA is allways jsut released in to the blood stream but a good portion of it probobly has to make a pass through your fat cells in a healthy person.

A paper you may want to pick up:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/quer...7&dopt;=Abstract

Here's the most current model of what happens with dietary fat.
Coming out of the small intestine, you've got chlymicrons entering the lymphatic system, eventually they reach the microcirculation of the adipose tissue. This means that ALL ingested dietary fat, except for short and medium chain triglycerides, will go through fat cells first, no matter what else you're doing. This is simply how dietary fat is handled.

At that level, they are acted upon by LPL (lipoprotein lipase), releasing free fatty acids.

As well, the fat cell is hydrolyzing stored triglyceride at some rate (set by activity of hormone sensitivity lipase) also releasing fatty acids.

It looks like these fatty acids from both sources (dietary ingested fat AND bodyfat) are going into a common pool of fatty acids (note, this is functionally identical to how both dietary and endogenously derived amino acids enter a free pool).

Depending on hormones, fatty acids from that pool are being reesterified in the fat cell via ASP.

Schematically it might look like this

ASP <-
Fat cell <-> Free fatty acid pool <-> dietary fatty acids
HSL -> <- LPL

Blood flow is moving perpendicularly (say from bottom to top) through the system.

The rate of adipose blood flow will affect how quickly (or not) fatty acids are removed from this common free pool. With good blood flow (i.e. during the fasting state or exercise), there will be a net removal of fatty acids (i.e.fatty acids escape to be used by other tissues for energy). With poor blood flow (after a meal, stubborn bodyfat), more will be re-esterified and yo'ull get net storage.

It's the net effect, storage vs. oxidation that affects whether you gain or lose fat.

In a caloric deficit (no matter what the macronutrient intake), you spend more time in the fasting (post-prandial) state over a 24 hour period. That includes between meals (b/c they are smaller) and while you're sleeping.

In a calorie surplus (no matter what hte macronutrient intake), you spend less time in the fasting state over a 24 hour period.

This is also why, generally speaking, shuffling around fats and carbs has no real impact on things, at least not within an identical calorie intake. As you eat more carbs, you lower fat intake so even though you burn less fat, the difference may be identical to a diet where you're eating less carbs and more fat.

That is, what matters at the end of the day is fat balance (fat oxidation - fat intake). Under most circumstances, fat balance will be identical to calorie balance. A positive calorie balance will turn up as a postive fat balance (fat gained) and vice versa.

Raising the seminal question: why bother with one diet vs. another?

Becuase there are other factors including adherence, maintaining training intensity, food preferences and others that go into a diet. If you can't stick to a high-carb/low-fat diet (b/c you're hungry or whatever), it doesn't matter if it should generate the same fat loss at a given calorie level: if you eat more, you'll lose less fat.

Lyle

This is also why, generally speaking, shuffling around fats and carbs has no real impact on things, at least not within an identical calorie intake. As you eat more carbs, you lower fat intake so even though you burn less fat, the difference may be identical to a diet where you're eating less carbs and more fat.

This may be so on paper but in my experience the breakdown and timing has a huge influence on my progress or lack thereof.