2 things i gotta say about Fina!!

trenbolone acetate binds well to the androgen receptor and winstrol, Anadrol, or an effective 4-AD formulation are Class-II steroids which work through other means than the AR.
Fina can be very effectively used in a mass cycle, since androgen receptor mediated activity (which is how trenbolone works) is important to mass gains. But using it by itself to put on mass isn't the best approach since non-androgen-receptor-mediated mechanisms of muscle growth are apparently not really being stimulated.

a fina only cycle is like a primo only cycle in terms of mass gains. In other words, usually moderate. However, it differs from Primo in that it's effective as a stimulant, whereas Primo has little or no effect in this regard.
You can expect some good strength gains with nothing but fina. However, the amount of strength that can be gained without also gaining a lot of mass is not alot.

Yeah, buff brings up a few other good points. Tren has a high binding affinity to the AR... and this would further eliminate problems at the PR.

Originally posted by Tadger
There is no increase in progesterone levels. The aromatase does not yeild progestins, just estrogens. Additionally, trenbolone is a non-aromatizable steroid. Tren can and does cross bind to the progesterone receptor... but as I stated before, it binds as an antagonist, just as winny does. Even if it were to bind as an agonist... it has very poor affinity to the progesterone receptor, so it wouldn't cause much of a problem unless you were shooting quite a bit of it.Tren has a very high affinity to the progesterone receptor. Actually greater than that of progesterone itself.

Still haven't found any evidence of tren being an antagonist.

Originally posted by Tadger
Cutmothafucka, even if the fina were to cause the gyno because of binding at the PR... you were running winny at the time. Winny has a very high affinity for the PR. This would prevent the fina from causing much if any protein synthesis anyway. This is why winny is so great at fighting gyno from nandrolone. There must be something else causing your gyno problem.In order to get progesteron induced gyno....aromatase must be present. In other words aromatizable steriods must be in the cycle....or a case of estrogen gyno must already be present. Just something to think about.

Also...winny just reduces the number of progesterone receptors for tren to bind to. That is really all. This may reduce the chances of getting progesterone induced gyno....but definately not a fool proof method.

Originally posted by Tadger
Um... in reference to the 'fina cough' stuff... Animal himself is the one that told me about the whole BA cough. I did a little research... and BA will cause you to cough. I don't know what all is in the fina pellets themselves that could cause this same cough... but it's not the tren. Maybe its one of the binders or fillers. If you use Humatren or Equitren you get no fina cough... even if ya get some in a vein. Yeah...I did some more research and some people swear by the ba cough. BUT....I'm not sure there isn't something in the tren that causes the cough.

Originally posted by buffdiggity
trenbolone acetate binds well to the androgen receptor and Winstrol, Anadrol, or an effective 4-AD formulation are Class-II steroids which work through other means than the AR.
Fina can be very effectively used in a mass cycle, since androgen receptor mediated activity (which is how trenbolone works) is important to mass gains. But using it by itself to put on mass isn't the best approach since non-androgen-receptor-mediated mechanisms of muscle growth are apparently not really being stimulated.

a fina only cycle is like a Primo only cycle in terms of mass gains. In other words, usually moderate. However, it differs from Primo in that it's effective as a stimulant, whereas Primo has little or no effect in this regard.
You can expect some good strength gains with nothing but fina. However, the amount of strength that can be gained without also gaining a lot of mass is not alot.
There are some non AR mediated activities of tren. I'm still looking for what exactly they are. I am aware that tren reduces the activity of catabolic glucocorticoids. But tren does have both clas I and class II properties. I'll get back to ya on that.

Yeah....and don't expect to much mass on a fina only cycle. But I would guess alot more than primo because of the big strength gains. Lets face it....the more strength....the more weight and reps your capable of....resulting in more mass.

Originally posted by Tadger
Yeah, buff brings up a few other good points. Tren has a high binding affinity to the AR... and this would further eliminate problems at the PR. Hows that?

Dizzy,

i'm starting to think that you respond to posts simply to either get a rise out of people or be a smart ass. i not flaming you in any way, but go back and re-read some of the posts that you've typed. many of them seem unecessary (such as the one above).

of course you'll make gains from fina only. buff's point was that it wouldn't be as high versus using other compounds. it seemed to me that you responded to that as a smart ass. again, no offence but this is my observation.

you seem well eduscated and know what your talking about, but it's hard to get your point across when everything that you respond to is brought out in a "techincal" or "actually" kind of way. this is only my 2 cents so take it for what it's worth, but since you seem to know a good deal, it would be more appealing to me if it were displayed in a different manner than "i know it all".

my thoughts,

dirk

Dirk....you need to reread my posts. We are sharing our ideas and thoughts on trenbolone. We are trying to figure out how/why tren does or does not cause gyno. I have never said (in any of my posts) that anybody is right or wrong. And my response to buff's post was my opinion. I'm not really in total disagreance with him like the suspension. I don't see the need to write JMO at the end of all my paragraphs. Because thats all I have.

You call me a smartass then say no flame. What kind of shit is that? And I've said over and over that I am not a steriod guru. So unless you would like to contribute....keep your personal feelings about my attitude to yourself. And fuck off....no flame.

BTW - I will never say to anyone that they are right or wrong. Just because I disagree...doesn't mean you are wrong. I respect everyone on this board. Except those that flame me.

i don't need to "re-read anything that you've written since you started writing. "Fuck Me" huh?........... i have no response to that as i'm not getting in a pissing match with you. just keep responding to your posts as you have and i'll keep reading them.

have a wonderful day! 😀

dirk

Yeah...you have a wonderful day too buddy.

Anyway...here is a study on the binding affinity of Tren And test.

Characterisation of the affinity of different anabolics and synthetic hormones to the human androgen receptor, human sex hormone binding globulin and to the bovine progestin receptor.

Bauer ER, Daxenberger A, Petri T, Sauerwein H, Meyer HH.

Institut fur Physiologie, Research Center for Milk and Food Weihenstephan, Technical University Munich, Germany.

For the steroidal growth promoters trenbolone acetate (TBA) and melengestrol acetate (MGA) neither the complete spectrum of biological activities nor the potential endocrine disrupting activity of their excreted metabolites in the environment is fully understood. The potency of these substances in [3H]dihydrotestosterone ([3H]-DHT) displacement from the recombinant human androgen receptor (rhAR) and from human sex-hormone binding globulin (hSHBG) was evaluated. In addition, the potency for [3H]-ORG2058 displacement from the bovine uterine progestin receptor (bPR) was tested. For comparison, different anabolics and synthetic hormones were also tested for their binding affinities. For 17beta-trenbolone (17beta-TbOH), the active compound after TBA administration, an affinity the rhAR similar to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and a slightly higher affinity to the bPR than progesterone were demonstrated. The affinity of the two major metabolites, 17alpha-trenbolone and trendione, was reduced to less than 5% of the 17beta-TbOH-value. The affinity of these three compounds and of MGA to the hSHBG was much lower compared with DHT. MGA showed a 5.3-fold higher affinity than progesterone to the bPR but only a weak affinity to the rhAR. The major MGA metabolites have an affinity to the bPR between 85% and 28% of the affinity of progesterone. In consequence, MGA and TBA metabolites may be hormonally active substances, which will be present in edible tissues and in manure. We conclude that detailed investigations on biodegradation, distribution and bio-efficacy of these substances are necessary.

And another about tren's other means of action

[Quantitative bibliographic review on the use of anabolic hormones with steroidogenic action in ruminants for meat production. II. Principal mode of action]

[Article in French]

Schmidely P.

INA-PG, station Nutrition et Alimentation, Paris, France.

The hypotheses on the modes of action of hormonal anabolic agents in growing animals have been reviewed in more than 120 recent publications. The mechanisms of action are still not fully understood. Androgens such as testosterone and estrogens such as oestradiol-17 beta (E-17 beta) may act in different ways: firstly, testosterone (and probably also E-17 beta) acts directly on different tissues, and particularly at the level of the muscle cell by binding to a specific receptor. The hormone-receptor complex interacts with the nuclear receptor located in the chromatin and enhances protein synthesis (and probably also protein degradation). Trenbolone acetate (TBA) reduces protein synthesis and to a greater extent protein degradation. This action of TBA could take place via a reduction in the activity of catabolic glucocorticoids, either by a diminution in their secretion, or by displacing them from their receptor, or by reducing the number of receptors. Secondly, an indirect action of anabolic hormones is probable via the modifications in activity of other growth-regulating hormones. Growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I concentrations are enhanced by E-17 beta, diethylstilbestrol, zeranol and testosterone but not by TBA. Insulin appears to be indirectly enhanced by estrogens through an increase in growth hormone, whereas androgens reduce insulin levels. Thyroid hormone (tri- and tetra-iodothyronine) activity is reduced by androgens, whereas the action of oestrogens depends on the physiological maturity of the animal. The modes of action of these anabolic hormones are discussed in relation to growth rate and body composition.

After trying to read that I feel out of my puter chair.

Oh and if ya want all the fina questions you could ever ask about fina go to. www.gotfina.com I'm not plugging this site but it has really good info about fina.

By William Llewellyn

It has been reported in other bodybuilding literature that trenbolone does not exhibit any activity as a progestin in the body. I am not certain where this belief originated, as trenbolone does appear to exhibit the classic progesterone receptor binding ability that is characteristic of nandrolone and its derivatives. One study looking at the bovine uterine progesterone receptor for example found trenbolone to be a very potent binder, startlingly even more so than progesterone itself (4). Another looking at the binding of various compounds to the androgen, estrogen, progestin, mineral corticoid and glucocorticoid receptors found trenbolone to be a more potent binder of the progestin receptor than nandrolone (5), a steroid normally noted for its usual activity in this regard. What does this mean for trenbolone? I don’t think it really means that much. Trenbolone clearly doesn’t cause gyno, water retention or fat buildup, which one might attribute to estrogenic or progestational activity. So whatever slight action it does have as a progestin on paper doesn’t amount to all that much in the real world. The absence of estrogen may be a significant factor, as progesterone is believed to cause gyno by enhancing estrogen’s stimulation of mammary gland growth (6). Perhaps when trenbolone is taken with other aromatizable compounds it could affect a person’s sensitivity level to gyno and water/fat retention. This seems logical, at least in a technical sense, although admittedly I have seen no evidence to support this.

Calm down there. Actually I rather enjoy discussing this stuff with Dizzy. Usually I get a little miffed when someone disagrees, but I like Dizzy cuz he knows his shit.

Now I like that first study you posted. I haven't seen that one before. I was always told that tren had rather poor affinity to the PR. Perhaps there's a difference between the bovine and human PRs? Dunno. I'll see if ST still has those other studies around.

oh yeah, if Tren has a high binding affinity for the AR, but a low affinity for the PR... it would spend more time at the AR. Granted that study you showed kinda negates that idea... but just so you know what I was thinking.